SEM History Post

A first look at the first issue of "Ethnomusicology" yields some surprising results. Because it began as a newsletter out of the ashes of the American Society for Comparative Musicology, the initial purpose of "Ethnomusicology" was to create a network or community of people interested in this field of study. To this end, most of what is featured in early versions of the journal can be categorized as resources and requests - lists of people and what they are working on, lists of books to read, lists of available courses, lists of places in need of ethnomusicologists, and lists of musical cultures recommended for study. An interesting, but separate, topic of discussion would be how much simpler this all would have been to establish in a time like now, where the internet thrives.

The states of individual projects mirrored the state of the field of ethnomusicology as a whole. There were lots of people and projects waiting for resources, like flowerbuds waiting for the right time to bloom, and there were lots of works in progress steadily gaining momentum. It was well-established that this was a pivotal time for the field; F.A. Cuttner writes in the second issue, "I have come to believe that the whole system of comparative methods is obsolete and inadequate, and that something else and much better will have to replace it if we are going to expect any significant progress in the future." This foreshadowed the changes in approach to ethnomusicological methods, but also demonstrated that the newsletter was a way to spread sentiments like these across a large group of researchers.

Interesting points of emphasis in these early project descriptions were quantities of material recorded (probably because one can't actually include the recordings themselves in the newsletter), technologies used in recording (possibly as advice / setting a standard), and Native American study subjects (probably convenient cultures to study). The structure of the content being presented is questionable at points, with concise summaries of a project and the hypotheses involved sometimes being all too general. The tone, at points, seems like the main purpose of "Ethnomusicology" was to record all these people and projects for posterity's sake. There are also examples of ethnomusicologists trying or hoping to extrapolate their specific studies to universal truths about music too quickly, one of my pet peeves in the world of ethnomusicology.

As the decade progressed, "Ethnomusicology" changed its format greatly, to that of a journal. Content was emphasized much more, featuring full articles on specific topics. Why wasn't it this way in the first place? I would say that by this time, one of the original goal of the newsletter, establishing a community network of ethnomusicologists, had been accomplished. Now the content of the journal could move past "resources useful in establishing a community" to "resources useful to an established community." "Ethnomusicology" seems to have done a good job keeping in step and evolving with the state and the needs of both the field and those who studied it in the 1950's.

Fieldwork Topic

For my fieldwork topic, I intend to study chiptunes. I have had some, but not much, experience with the genre, so I'm looking forward to diving into it.

A few nice things about chiptunes as a topic:

-They are somewhat fringe

-They have all sorts of interesting cultural and historical cross-ties (i.e. to videogames and a certain era of computers, as well as a movement of chiptune cover songs)

-The genre (hopefully) will be a little more easier to "bound" than other options I was considering.

-I know one person who makes chiptunes as part of his musical work, and another who could be inclined to start.

A few not so nice things about chiptunes as a topic:

-They are somewhat fringe

-From what I can tell through preliminary research, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of a chiptune scene in Rhode Island. Fortunately, there is a huge chiptune scene in New York and I believe a decent-sized one in Massachusetts, so hopefully those can work out.

Handler Critical Review #1

The Handler article was unclear in the points it was trying to make, until the very end, where fortunately it came to some reasonable and accurate conclusions. The section on Quebec seemed to have a bit of a negative tone, and to be dancing around what it really wanted to say (calling Quebecois out that culture does not imply nation). Both sections, but the Quebec one especially, seemed to be making statements about the people under discussion without backing them up / citing research. The article concludes that tradition is always created/defined in the present, and that preservation attempts inevitably alter the culture. I just don't happen to think that either of these is a huge revelation.

Discussion Question: How quickly do you think tradition becomes / can become self-conscious?

Can you think of things you've done only a few times, but then classified as tradition? How did that change the experience and the motivation for doing it?

24-hour Listening Log

A log of all the music I heard for 24-hours (voluntarily or involuntarily), along with a guide of where I heard it. [And fun commentary in brackets. And some sweet links.]

Begin: 02/04/10, 12:57pm

Ipod, walking to class: [Helpful note: Throughout the 24 hours, I was shuffling through my 4 and 5 star playlist, a.k.a. songs I like and songs I love]

-Ben Folds - "Philosophy (Live)"

In MUSC 56 - Tonal Theory:

-Various musical examples played on piano or sung by the class.

-Richard Strauss - "Also Sprach Zarathustra" [Fucking awesome. Especially blasting it on decent speakers.]

-Singing and playing piano through "Also Sprach," focusing on relevant musical theory points

-Richard Strauss - "Also Sprach Zarathustra" [Just as awesome the second time.]

-More various musical examples played on piano or sung by the class, including Happy Birthday

-Robert Schumann - "Dichterliebe" exerpt, played by the professor on piano

-Johannes Brahms - "3rd Symphony in F Major" intro, repeated several times as a dictation exercise.

In the OMAC Weight Room: [Most of these were looked up after the fact]

-Ludacris ft. Jay Z and Nas - "I Do it For Hip Hop" [didn't really know the song, recognized Luda and Jay Z though]

-Lil' Wayne - "Got Money"

-Yo Gotti ft. Gucci Mane, Trina, & Nicki Minaj - "5 Star Chick (Remix)"

-Foxx ft. Webbie & Lil Boosie - "Wipe Me Down (Remix)"

-Sean Paul, or someone who sounds like Sean Paul [Just flipped through 30 Sean Paul Youtube vids, no luck]

-Rihanna - "Hard" [didn't know the song, recognized Rihanna. 2 days later, came into the gym again and the cd was on this song again.]

-Chris Brown - "I Can Transform Ya"

-DJ Lil Roy[?] - a mix that included among other things, Gang Starr - "Just to Get a Rep," LL Cool J - "Mama Said Knock You Out," DNA [remixing Suzanne Vega] - "Tom's Diner," A Tribe Called Quest - "Bonita Applebum," and KRS-One "Step into a World (Rapture's Delight)."

-GLC ft. Kanye West & T-Pain - "Flight School" [didn't know the song, recognized Kanye and T-Pain]

-Kid Cudi - "Day 'N' Nite" [might have been a remix]

-[Another Rap song, lyrics I remember: "that's why I got the fiends on the block right now," "trying to unload what I got right now," something about if things start going badly, being totally willing to going back to selling crack.]

-[Some reggaeton song, lyrics unintelligible]

-Jay-Z - What We Talkin' About [didn't know the song, recognized Jay-Z]

Songs I Sang to Myself Walking Home from the OMAC: [all of these were just snippets]

-The Receiving End of Sirens - "... Then I Defy You Stars"

-Taking Back Sunday - "Bike Scene"

-Taking Back Sunday - "Timberwolves at New Jersey"

-Brand New - "Vices"

-Paramore - "Franklin"

[I wonder if this section gives a coherent picture of my musical interests...]

Walking to Manning Chapel:

-Manchester Orchestra - "In My Teeth"

-The Decemberists - "The Infanta"

-Pink Floyd - "Goodbye Blue Sky" [half of it]

In Manning Chapel:

-A friend and I fooling around on the pipe organ.

Atrium of an Art Show:

-The Shins - "New Slang"

-The Wonders - "That Thing That You Do"

-Jason Mraz - "The Remedy"

-Rolling Stones - "Beast of Burden"

iPod, Walking Back from Art Show:

-Pink Floyd - "Goodbye Blue Sky" [the rest]

-The Killers - "When You Were Young"

-Third Eye Blind - "Never Let You Go"

-Lights - "Drive My Soul" [I WANT TO MARRY THIS GIRL] [Seriously though, I used to classify this as "The Best Guilty Pleasure Music Ever," until I stopped feeling guilty. She's on tour with The Poor Man's Postal Service Owl City Now, I'm predicting she's a big deal in 6 months to a year. LET THE RECORD SHOW THAT I WAS WAY INTO HER OVER A YEAR AGO]

-My Bloody Valentine - "Only Shallow" [half of it]

At Home:

-Crash Kings - "Evolution of Rock - With No Guitars" [Sent to me from a friend as a reason why I should have been going to their concert that night. It was tremendously awesome, and in fact made me very sad I was not going.]

iPod, Walking to Class the Next Day:

-My Bloody Valentine - "Only Shallow" [the rest of it]

-Marcy Playground - "Sex and Candy" [about 15 seconds, just long enough to realize I was sick of this song, rate it 3 stars instead of 4, and skip to the next one]

-Michael Jackson - "Beat It" [was having a less than stellar morning, so this was a good pump up]

In MUSC 56 Lab:

-Me and a classmate struggling through chord progressions in minor on the piano

-Intervals, seventh chords, and a melody for dictation, all played on the piano as a quiz

End: 02/05/10 12:57 P.M.

Thoughts: A pretty interesting sample. I slept kind of late and was doing homework in the morning on the second day, so less listening occurred there than would be usual. Scribbling down song lyrics while trying to work out was a pain, but in a humorous way. It was also funny having 25 tabs open on my browser searching for a rap song that had the words "cars cash rims wheels." I feel like my tastes manifest themselves a little bit here, but probably not as much as other days (not that that's the point). But what it lacks in that department, it makes up for in range of styles of music experienced.

Interviews 2: Participants in Post-Hardcore

These interviews were conducted via email with people I knew were involved in the scene.  A larger sample size would have been ideal, but you take what you can get.

Inteviewee 1: Adam

1. How would you describe post-hardcore music?  What are the key elements?

Post-hardcore blends heavy, technical guitar with punk beats and often odd time signatures. Screaming is usually a supplementary element to post-hardcore. 

2. What bands do you consider post-hardcore?

Thrice, Saosin, Closure in Moscow, Fall of Troy, Alesana, A Fall Farewell, Devil Wears Prada( well, maybe more metalcore)...

3. What music did you listen to before you got into post-hardcore?

I mean everything really.My favorite before that was like punk rock and pop-punk, such as Bad Religion and Millencolin. But that didn't mean I didn't listen to other things, such as Weezer, Bush, Smashing Pumpkins... 

Can you see connections that would lead you from one to the other?

Absolutely. Punk beats are the backbone of post-hardcore, but the guitars are slightly more complicated and usually darker. Punk had a flavor called hardcore for a while, such as Dead Kennedys and Black Flag. That definitely was the "before" (hence POST-hardcore).

 

4. What are the three things you like most about post-hardcore as a

whole (including music, shows, fashion, people, etc.)?

1. The guitars. I play guitar, and I just love the heaviness, the energy, and the tone of the guitars.

2. The technical aspect of the music. Double bass, arpeggiated solos...its fun to learn and play.

3. I just want to headbang and rock out. I feel MOVED by the music. 

5. Do you think there is a style of dress assosciated with the scene?

If so, what is it like?

Yes. It's pretty much emo/goth. It's really annoying. 

6. Why do you listen to post-hardcore?  What does it bring to the

table that other genres don't?

Sort of the top 3 isn't it? I like that it blends technical, heavy music with melody and energy.

 

7. What bands have you played in and would you describe any of them as

post-hardcore?

I played in two bands, and they were more of the pop-punk variety, with post-hardcore influences. I liked the more technical guitar, but the vocal melodies and the beats were much poppier.

 

8. What resources are available in the MA/RI area for local bands in the scene?

Lots of venues. And lots of bands. 4 Year Strong is one of the biggest bands in the scene and its just a matter of getting to know all fo the bands so you can get on a bill at any one of the bajillion venues around. 

Interviewee 2: Jeff (name changed)

1. How would you describe post-hardcore music?  What are the key elements?

I would describe post-hardcore music as heavy drums and loud guitar accompanied by clean vocals and melodic rhythms. Hardcore roots with punk influences.

2. What bands do you consider post-hardcore?

thrice, thursday, underoath, saosin, yesterday's rising etc.

3. What music did you listen to before you got into post-hardcore?

This is hard to apply to me, because I have always been listening to different things, but I guess you could say before post-hardcore I listened to many alternative rock? I guess...its the next logical step

4. What are the three things you like most about post-hardcore as a

whole (including music, shows, fashion, people, etc.)?

the drums, guitar riffs, and the electronica that some use. shows are upbeat and enjoyable.

5. Do you think there is a style of dress assosciated with the scene?

I think that the scene is a mixed bag, but there is definitely a type of person that predominantly makes up the crowd. tight pants, colorful t-shirts, nike dunks, flat brim hats, fat 13 year old girls with an underoath tshirt in the front row.

6. Why do you listen to post-hardcore?  What does it bring to the

table that other genres don't?

the reason i mainly listen to post hardcore is because i like the instrumentals of hardcore but cant deal with the constant screaming of hardcore band singers. I feel post-hardcore is a good medium because they have an actual singer. it brings a good mix of harder instrumentals and punk-ish vocals, something no other genre has.

Final Ethnography Post

The Receiving End of Sirens met its end, and Monty Are I returned to R.I.  The last two years have been busy for the post-hardcore scene in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, and its future seems a little up to chance.  With the rise and fall of emo, the staying power of post-hardcore is put into question, some declaring that it has already collapsed.  Part of the answer lies in more questions: What is post-hardcore?  Who listens to it? Who plays it? And most importantly, why?

The Receiving End of Sirens of Boston, MA plays its farewell show at a packed Lupo's in Providence.  (Future Breed)

Additionally, my interest in this topic is somewhat personal - post-hardcore was a term that kept popping up a few years ago when I started listening to Saosin and The Receiving End of Sirens.  I didn't exactly know what it meant or what its history was, but I knew I liked the sound.  Having grown up on hard rock and heavy metal, then exploring other genres, and later making my foray into emo despite its stigma, this was a nice sonic middle ground between the two - thundering drum fills, distorted power chords, complex melodic guitar hooks, impressively high emotionally charged vocals offset by a good balance of screamed vocals, and introspective lyrics that I related to more directly than songs about British fighter pilots in the 1940's.  In addition, some of these bands were incorporating electronic elements into otherwise straight ahead rock instrumentation, something I hadn't heard before.

Example of recent post-hardcore from Boston, MA; listen for balance of hardcore elements and softer ones, as well as electronic drum and keyboard samples.

The classification of the genre can become extremely difficult and muddled, with so many different words being used to describe similar sounds.  I've explored the territory and have concluded that the definition is very dependent on the time period it is referring to.  Currently, there are 3 ways it is being used: by strictly emo bands that don't want to be called "emo," by bands that overlap with emo but are heavier due to hardcore influences (I'll call this "modern post-hardcore"), and by bands that overlap with emo but emphasize pushing creative limits by incorporating elements of electronica/prog rock/ska (I'll call this "experimental post-hardcore").  The first is an example of how elements of subcultures are appropriated for mainstream use, sometimes with an accompanying perversion of original meaning.  (Hebdige 1979, p. 94)  The other two each cover one of the fundamentals of the most basic definition of post-hardcore: music that 1) "took inspiration from hardcore, while 2) concerning themselves with a wider palette of expression" (wiki, numbers added).

A big issue with genre classification depends on who is applying them - are the labels coming from people within the scene or from people outside the scene?  When it first emerged, the genre was referred to by some as "post-hardcore," most likely people within the scene or at least with some respect for the music, but others referred to it as "emo-core," from "emotional hardcore." (Grubbs, 2008, p. 27)  Bands seem more likely to reject labels than fans; Monty Are I frontman Steve Aiello initially said he didn't really think of his band as post-hardcore.  On the other hand, my fan interviewees both seemed very comfortable with the term.  I would speculate that bands don't like being put in genre boxes because it attempts to confine the music that they make.  My fan interviewees, however, both claim to like/have liked other genres in addition to post-hardcore.  In a global music scene that is more about micro-movements than large-scale movements that capture an entire generation, it's quite common to associate ones taste with a wide variety of specific genres.  The advantage fans have is that they get to associate themselves with many labels, whereas bands usually get only one or two, so fans are less confined by labels.

Part of the use of "emotional" and its variations to describe post-hardcore are a reaction to the less masculine and more feminine nature of the sound when compared to hardware. (Aslaksen 2006, p.5) When vocalists stopped screaming the entire time, and moved towards cleaner, more melodic, and often higher range vocals, the perceived change and response from the more established genre was akin to what happened with twelfth-century polyphony.  The music was denounced as attempting "to feminize all their spellbound little followers with the girlish way they render the notes and end the phrases." (McClary 2004, p. 30)  Femininity entering a previously masculine sphere was scorned.

Whatever terminology is applied to the music, why listen to it?  My interviewees agreed that the technical guitar and drum parts, as well as the heavy yet energetic feel of the music were key reasons.  Also a balance between melody and hardcore elements, as Jeff (name changed) said "The reason I mainly listen to post-hardcore is because I like the instrumentals of hardcore but can't deal with the constant screaming of hardcore band singers. I feel post-hardcore is a good medium because they have an actual singer."  This sonic middle ground between hardcore and emo is appealing to people whose tastes either span the spectrum, or have a line drawn somewhere along the spectrum that sets off whatever is too hardcore/too emo.  This middle ground exists not only sonically but chronologically, as post-hardcore existed in the transition between the larger movements of hardcore and emo.  The genre crystallized most clearly around Fugazi, the band that defined the genre, with roots firmly established in hardcore punk, but breaking free from musical conventions and exploring new ones to the point that "one could almost call them a post-punk jam band." (Wagner 2007, p. 69)  Interestingly enough, none of my interviewees brought up Fugazi, which goes to show that the term "post-hardcore" is much more attached to the more recent definitions.

The band that defined the genre, mixing elements of hardcore with melody and introspection.

Now that I have defined post-hardcore, contextualized it historically, and examined why people might like it, I'll focus on what is unique, important, and interesting about the scene in Massachusetts and Rhode Island.  While many bands named by my interviewees were larger, national acts from elsewhere, southern New England has a strong contingent of local post-hardcore bands: The Receiving End of Sirens,  Therefore I Am, Monty Are I, Les Savy Fav, Vanna, A Loss for Words, Four Year Strong.  Though the genre was born out of the D.C. hardcore scene, the D.I.Y. ethic that began punk and persisted through D.I.Y. labels like Dischord Records (Grubbs 2008, p. 6), was very translatable to MA/RI as part of what Steve Aiello calls "an East-Coast mentality."  Bands are willing to work hard to be able to make and promote the music they love making, even if that involves taking on responsibilities usually reserved for record labels.

Steve Aiello, frontman of Monty Are I from Cranston, RI (Tara's Flickr)

The other key element of this local scene is that there are resources enough for it to exist.  Both states have a fair amount of venues within the size range of the audience, from churches and VFW halls to larger clubs.  Having these venues available and willing to book shows gives the bands outlets to play at, ways to make money, and ways to move up the ranks by playing at certain venues.  Although Steve bemoans the loss of several key venues, Adam brings up the point that there are still a lot of them, even if there have been some quality losses.  The size and population density of the states (especially Rhode Island) is another advantage, enabling bands to do a lot of promotion themselves (i.e. postering and flyering every high school in R.I.), as Steve can attest to.  Again, the intensity of the combination of D.I.Y. and East Coast work ethics is what makes this work possible.

A shot from Vanna concert at the International Community Church in Allston, MA (Vanna blog and journals)

Though the term is thrown around liberally nowadays, "post-hardcore", when used appropriately, still points to a genre that took the sound and work ethic of hardcore punk, shook it out of its violent and principles-over-music stalemate, and created a more personal and palatable style of music.  At its best, it balances the intensity, hardness, and energy, with introspection and melody, creating an appealing blend that sits in the middle of the spectrum between emo and hardcore.  Though I can't say for sure, the genre's principles of sonic experimentation and expansion seem to be enough to outlast the mislabeled-as-hardcore emo that's on its way out.  Only time will tell if this genre was merely a transitional period, or whether it is here to stay.

Word Count: 1,374

Works Cited:

Alsaksen, Matthew J.  Middle Class Music in Surburban Nowhere Land: Emo and the Performance of Masculinity. Graduate College of Bowling Green State University, 2006. <http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Aslaksen%20Matthew%20J.pdf?bgsu1147712034>

Grubbs, Eric. Post: A Look At the Influence of Post-Hardcore - 1985-2007.

iUniverse, 2008.

Hebdige, Dick. Subculture: The Meaning of Style. New York, NY: Routledge, 1981.

McClary, Susan. "Same As It Ever Was: Youth Culture and Music." Microphone Fiends: Youth Music & Youth Culture.  New York, NY: Routledge, 1994.

Wagner, Cassie and Elizabeth Stephan.  Left of The Dial: An Itroduction to Underground Rock 1980-2000.  Haworth Press, 2005.

<http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=morris_articles>

www.last.fm

www.lyricsfreak.com

www.wikipedia.org

www.urbandictionary.com

Fieldnotes 3: Defining Post-Hardcore

What is post-hardcore?  A seemingly simple question that's actually quite slippery.

Some are content to say that post-hardcore is a vague label that is slapped on whenever a band meets a few minimum requirements.  While there is some truth in that statement, I think a better explanation can be offered.

The meaning of "post-hardcore" changes depending on when (and where) the term is referring to.  Here are the meanings, chronologically, about as finely as I can divide them and using some labels I invented.

Proto-post-hardcore (~1976):

Expanded beyond hardcore punk's rigid set of rules, setting the stage for the next phase; "proved there was indeed room for stylistic diversity in hardcore punk" (last.fm)

Examples: Black Flag, The Minutemen, Flipper, Husker Du. (also influential from the art punk direction: Sonic Youth, Big Black)

The First Wave (~1985):

The purest definition of "post-hardcore," music that came directly after hardcore punk reached its logical and creative dead end (stance on straight-edge more important than music, excessive violence at shows preventing more shows from happening, frustrations with confines of the style).  These bands "combined a stronger command of songwriting, a better sense of melody and rhythm, and an introspective lyrical focus, with the power of hardcore." (last.fm)  Detractors dubbed this new genre "emocore."

Examples: Rites of Spring, Embrace, Gray Matter, Ignition

Addition of Art Rock Tendencies(~1987):

If we look at a general definition of post-hardcore as music that "emerged from the hardcore punk scene, or took inspiration from hardcore, while concerning themselves with a wider palette of expression, closer to experimental rock" (wiki), then this relates to the latter part.  In the First Wave, post-hardcore escaped/"emerged" from hardcore; now it explored and experimented with where it could go.

Examples: Moss Icon, Happy Go Licky, Soulside

Midwest Post-Hardcore (~1987):

Occurring simultaneously with the phase above, but in a different geographic space and headed in a different direction, these bands "were focused on confrontation through precision and extreme volume" (last.fm).  This offshoot would go on to spawn math rock, and feed back into noise rock.

Examples: The Jesus Lizard, Arcwelder, Silverfish, Rapeman, Shellac

Crystallization (~1988):

This stage was mainly attained because the band that defined the genre came along (Fugazi).  A key aspect of this definitiveness was that Fugazi was decidedly post-hardcore and decidedly NOT emo.  This was followed by a flurry of excitement of other bands and even some moderate mainstream success stories (Jawbox, Sunny Day Real Estate, Jawbreaker), which started to branch off into emo.

Examples: Fugazi, Native Nod, Clikatat Ikatowi, Hoover, Drive Like Jehu, Navio Forge, Unwound, Maximillian Colby, Lungfish, 1.6 Band, Jawbox, Sunny Day Real Estate, Jawbreaker.

Incorporating Electronic/Prog Elements (~1993):

Somewhat like another push from the "Addition of Art Rock Tendencies," these bands further explored what new elements could be brought into the post-hardcore arena, the results are post-hardcore at its creative extremes, and at times, quite sonically distant from the source.

Examples: Les Savy Fav, At The Drive-In, The Dismemberment Plan

Popularization (~1997):

Here's where the genre lines got very blurry.  The new genre of emo grew, taking its name from the original insult of "emotional hardcore" but its accessible, less edgy, sound from Sunny Day Real Estate, Jawbreaker, and bands that continued in that direction.  The overlap makes it difficult to tell where post-hardcore ends and emo begins, but I would venture to say this is the last wave of bands that were called "post-hardcore" before the term began to be abused.

Examples: Thursday, Thrice, Finch

Collapse / Re-appropriation (~2001):

As emo began to explode, artists searched for what to call their music.  Most genre labels are undesirable simply because they are labels; emo had built-in negative connotation that few, if any, bands wanted.  "Post-hardcore" at least was not an overtly bad label, and this new music could still claim origin from there.  Only in these last two time periods do we the definition first mentioned coming true.  At this point, which is largely where we still are currently, I see "post-hardcore" being used in three ways.

1. Towards bands that are strictly emo, but do not want to be described as such.  The term is being misused.

2. Towards bands that have some overlap with emo, but have a distinctly heavier sound that touches on hardcore roots and isn't fully captured by the simple description of emo (which can apply to much lighter music, i.e. Dashboard Confessional).  The term is being used acceptably, with respect to a definition of modern post-hardcore. 

3. Towards bands that have some overlap with emo, but still seek the sonic expansion of the "Incorporating Electronic/Prog Elements" phase.  The term is being used acceptably (though perhaps "progressive post-hardcore" would be more accurate?).

Examples: The Receiving End of Sirens, Monty Are I, Thrice (on The Alchemy Index), Circa Survive, Bear Vs. Shark.

On a final note, I realize that at some point, drawing these genre lines in the sand becomes futile.  The lines are in different places for different people, and there is certainly a sonic continuum/spectrum from this side of the line to that side of the line.  So, while these classifications are somewhat subjective, I figured a careful analysis of the history, changes, and subdivisions in this and related genres would be more useful than writing the whole thing off as "to subjective to call."  At least this lays a foundation of key bands, sonic movements, and time periods to work with.